UNCOVERED: is a column designed to uncover the personal side of some of the most interesting people at Columbia Business School including faculty, staff, administration and students. The goal of UNCOVERED: is to get beyond the business exterior and into the personal interior, exposing a side we rarely see.
Due to the tremendously busy schedule of Joe Stiglitz, this is a very unusual edition of Uncovered. Fearing another interview cancellation, I lobbied hard to interview him prior to his trip to Brunei and Shanghai. Stiglitz posed to me that if I wanted to show up at his home and ride in the cab with him to the airport that I could have the interview. I took him up on his offer.
JMK: Wow, your home is beautiful.
Stiglitz: Thank you. That’s a beautiful view (looking out at his view of the Hudson).
JMK: These photos are great. [There are various photos of Stiglitz with Bill Clinton, Al Gore, the Swedish Royal Family, etc. on display at his home.]
JMK: (Now riding inside the cab) Joe, thank you so much for this interview. My goal with this is to get to know a more personal side of you that we wouldn’t learn by attending your class or reading your CV. I know what your economic policy views are, now I want to get to know who you are.
Stiglitz: Ok. (Joe removes his dress shoes)
JMK: Do you take your shoes off a lot?
Stiglitz: Yeah, it’s comfortable.
JMK: Do you remove them in class?
Stiglitz: (Laughing) No.
JMK: Let’s start with the basics. Can you tell me a little about your childhood?
Stiglitz: I grew up in Gary, Indiana which was an old steel town. I have a brother and sister. My father had an insurance agency. My mother taught elementary school until she was forced to retire at age 67 and then she got a job teaching at Purdue University and taught there until she was 84.
JMK: Did you always know you were brilliant?
Stiglitz: (laughing) That is a hard question, I don’t know. I always got good grades but my father always said it was because no one else was smart in the class. My parents always emphasized education and also politics. We always had intense political discussions growing up.
JMK: Were your parents both strong Democrats?
Stiglitz: Yes.
JMK: Did your parents have a lot of money?
Stiglitz: No. They always said money is not important. I mean they had enough money. But I had a well-off uncle who would chip in for things like camp. My parents couldn’t afford that luxury.
JMK: What were you like in high school?
Stiglitz: Very studious. I was on the debate team.
JMK: Did you have a girlfriend?
Stiglitz: (laughing) Oh no.
JMK: When was your first kiss?
Stiglitz: (embarrassed) Oh…that was in high school.
JMK: Ok switching gears. You left the World Bank in 2000. You then won the Nobel Prize in Economics in 2001. Was that sweet revenge to some degree?
Stiglitz: This will sound slightly arrogant but I always knew I was right. I believed I was right. And I think most economists did. It enhanced the credibility within circles that were not well trained in economics. But many economists know and agree with the work in which it was based.
JMK: Are you still invited to the annual World Bank BBQ?
Stiglitz: Actually I often do go down to the World Bank. I have very close ties with the World Bank and I am on the World Bank advisory board.
JMK: What about the IMF?
Stiglitz: I even go down to the IMF. I’m scheduled to give a talk at the IMF in about six or seven weeks.
JMK: That is so interesting because based on so much of the information readily available online, it appears that there is turmoil between you and the IMF. For example I was on their website where I came across an “Open Letter” from Kenneth Rogoff who is the Economic Counselor and Director of Research for the IMF. He addressed the letter to you and made comments ranging from questioning the facts in your book, to making statements such as “you are a towering genius academically, but as a policy maker you’re a bit less impressive,” and “Do you ever lose a night’s sleep thinking that just maybe Alan Greenspan had it right-and that your impulsive actions might have deepened the downturn or delayed-even for a day-the recovery in Asia?” How do you feel about that?
Stiglitz: It was a letter that he never sent. So it wasn’t really a letter. I was giving a presentation at the World Bank on my book. As a courtesy, members from the IMF were invited, and the Chief Economist of the World Bank at the time was assured that this would be a discussion on the substantive issues I address in the book. After I gave my talk where I laid down the key analytical issues, rather than responding to those issues, he went into a launch about things like “selling snake oil.” It was completely out of place. Many people at the event commented afterwards on how inappropriate it was and even some people from the IMF apologized for Rogoff’s behavior. But this demonstrated in a way the kind of arrogance the IMF is known for. While I was at the World Bank I was trying to get a discussion on the substantive issues for years and the IMF constantly refused a discussion in the open.
JMK: Are you arrogant?
Stiglitz: I don’t think so.
JMK: Really? But you’re confident?
Stiglitz: Yeah.
JMK: How do you deal with criticism?
Stiglitz: I don’t like criticism. I’m very sensitive. I don’t like people not liking me, it is a very hard thing for me. I never did. I never took being scolded very well as a kid. But I think in public life it is part of the territory. In academic life it is part of the territory. The difference is that some criticisms are substantive, such as a missed concept on a paper, and that is ok. But many fields are filled with EGO and people who criticize others in hopes of pushing them down, in order to pull themselves up and I find that reprehensible. In the case of Kenneth Rogoff of the IMF, it would have been a poor decision for me to stoop to his level, so I responded in real time by ignoring his statements and returning to the substantive issues. In the end I think it backfired for him. He brought attention and controversy, it became a global issue and debate for a few weeks and in the end it just increased sales of my book. In the country of Colombia they even quoted the IMF as part of an advertisement of the book.
JMK: Who are your role models?
Stiglitz: Ken Arrow. He is brilliant and, in his eighties, he is still sharp and open-minded.
JMK: You have 18 honorary Ph.D.’s and are scheduled to receive 3 more. How does that feel?
Stiglitz: It feels nice. I have worked very hard and in some cases I have taken some very controversial positions, so to be recognized for it feels nice.
JMK: Do you ever just walk around and just stop and think… “Man I am smart?”
Stiglitz: (laughing) No, no. But I do stop and think about what an interesting life I have had so far.
JMK: Are you married?
Stiglitz: I am in the process of getting a divorce. It is a very painful subject. It is a real demonstration of the failure of America’s legal system.
JMK: I find that people who are very scientific often do not believe in religion. Are you religious? Do you believe in fate?
Stiglitz: I tend to be fairly agnostic about these issues. I think a lot about ethical issues and concepts of social justice. But I had a very strong religious upbringing. In high school I went and had a personality test done and they said based on my personality I should be a Rabbi. (laughing)
JMK: (laughing) Do you follow any religion now?
Stiglitz: No. But I have a very strong Jewish background.
JMK: Do you ever walk into a restaurant where no one can get a reservation and say “alright listen….I’ve got a Nobel Prize.”
Stiglitz: (laughing) No, no.
JMK: And you have a girlfriend right now, right?
Stiglitz: Yes, her name is Anya.
JMK: How did you meet?
Stiglitz: At Columbia Business School. She was a Knight-Bagehot Fellow.
JMK: How long have you been together?
Stiglitz: Four years.
JMK: Are you in love?
Stiglitz: (blushing) (giggling) Yeah.
JMK: Ok, so what does the Nobel Prize look like? Is it a medal? Do you wear it often?
Stiglitz: You get a gold medal which you put in the vault. You get some replicas of that and you get a certificate. It is an original piece of art.
JMK: Where are the replicas?
Stiglitz: I don’t know, I think Anya knows where they are.
JMK: Ok, your CV is 48 pages. You continue to publish as much recently as you did early in your career. What is your next goal? What is enough for you? When do you say “What else is there?”
Stiglitz: I write mainly because I really like it. If I face a problem, to work it through I sit down and write about it. Some of my writing also has a political agenda.
JMK: What did you think about the Madonna-Brittany Spears kiss? Did you hear about it?
Stiglitz: What is that? No.
JMK: Do you watch TV?
Stiglitz: No. Almost never.
JMK: What is your guilty pleasure?
Stiglitz: (laughing) Eating. I like exotic foods.
JMK: Do you cook?
Stiglitz: I used to. I have been trying to more often but I am so busy. I recently made a cucumber soup.
JMK: Yeah you are busy. Watching you walk into your office and interact at an insane pace with all of your assistants… I was trying to say something to you and literally could not get a word in. It was insane.
Stiglitz: Yeah.
JMK: What do you do to relax?
Stiglitz: Well, like this ride right now is very calming.
JMK: It is the first time I have ever seen you sit.
Stiglitz: (laughing) Yeah.
JMK: Do you think geniuses are born or made?
Stiglitz: I think it is a mixture of heredity and environment. There are a lot of very bright people who do not apply themselves and live up to their potential. There are also a lot of people who work extremely hard and make important contributions but are not geniuses… so I suppose it is probably a combination of both.
JMK: I have to ask the questions, did you watch the movie “A Beautiful Mind?” Do you see any of that in yourself.
Stiglitz: Yes I did. And I know John Nash. The movie is a dramatization. Interestingly at the Nobel Prize conference John Nash asked one of the most interesting questions of me, he is very alert.
JMK: What did you do with the million bucks you get for winning the Nobel Prize?
Stiglitz: Well, it is divided between three of us and then the government takes half so it is really not much.
JMK: You are so talented in one area. Do you think you live a balanced life?
Stiglitz: Yes I do. And Anya has made it much better.
We arrive at JKF airport. We continue the interview at the VIP lounge over dinner.
JMK: If you were single would you use the pick-up line “Hey baby… my name is Joe… I’ve got a Nobel Prize?”
Stiglitz: (laughing loud) (Almost chokes on his steak….Shakes his head no)…No.
JMK: When I see a lucky penny on the street I will pick it up. Do you do that? Are you superstitious in anyway?
Stiglitz: I will occasionally throw a penny into a fountain or knock on wood, but more as a social gesture than as a superstition.
JMK: So you are off to Brunei and Shanghai in about an hour?
Stiglitz: Yeah, I’m meeting with the African Commonwealth finance ministers.
JMK: Are you excited?
Stiglitz: Yeah.
JMK: Do you ever go to a conference or an event and get bored?
Stiglitz: Usually there is always something interesting going on.
JMK: What is the wildest thing you have ever done?
Stiglitz: I don’t know what that means.
JMK: It could be anything… like you once mooned someone or shortchanged a toll booth and got away…I don’t know… anything.
Stiglitz: (laughing) I know I must have done something… It’s not very wild but I once drank too much. I was a graduate student in Cambridge - this was 1965. Two of Poland’s most distinguished economists arranged for me to be there. The students there liked Vodka and I remember drinking too much. The other students had drank too much and they started talking about how terrible communism is.
JMK: What are your pet peeves?
Stiglitz: Incompetency. Also when people take advantage of their position of power to promote themselves or to promote special interests rather the to take the opportunity to do some good for the world.
JMK: Have you ever met anyone as smart as you?
Stiglitz: (pause) Yeah.
JMK: Are you lying?
Stiglitz: No, Ken Arrow is. I have had a number of teachers who are very bright. I think Bruce Greenwald is a real genius too.
JMK: What is your biggest weakness?
Stiglitz: Disorganization.
JMK: What do you find sexy?
Stiglitz: I am attracted to someone who is bright, quick, as well as good-looking. It is more the liveliness for the mind.
JMK: What is your biggest insecurity?
Stiglitz: (pauses for awhile) I do worry that people don’t understand me.
JMK: You’re worried that people don’t understand your theories, or don’t understand you as a person?
Stiglitz: Both.
JMK: You are sensitive?
Stiglitz: Yes, very sensitive.
JMK: What keeps you motivated.
Stiglitz: I love the intellectual ideas and I really LOVE teaching.
JMK: How do you feel about Dean Feldberg stepping down.
Stiglitz: I was very sad. I have been to a lot of Universities and he has made this the best run academic institution I have ever been at. What is remarkable is the combination of being well-run and incredibly intellectual. It’s first rate. At the same time it is an institution that is very personable and very tolerant of a whole variety of lifestyles. It is very difficult to find someone who combines fundraising ability with commitment to scholarship with the ability to run the business of an academic institution. I don’t think people fully understand how difficult it is to run an academic institution.
JMK: What is something you know about life now, that you wish you knew when you were 27 years old?
Stiglitz: I think there are a lot of things I know now, that I am glad I didn’t know when I was twenty-seven. I am a lot more cynical now. When I was twenty-seven I thought that if you have good and novel ideas, they would influence people and shape economics. Now I realize that special interests, burocracy and politics play a much bigger role. I am glad I didn’t know that at twenty-seven or it would have hindered my spirits.
JMK: Do you swear? I have never heard you swear.
Stiglitz: No, I don’t.
JMK: Have you ever?
Stiglitz: I think once I recall using a swear word and my mother washed my mouth out with soap.
JMK: What about as an adult? Ever?
Stiglitz: No.
JMK: Not even when you are absolutely irate….you don’t just want to yell one out?
Stiglitz: No (laughing) maybe that’s Indiana for you.
JMK: Michael Jackson and Dave Letterman are from your hometown in Indiana.
Stiglitz: True.
JMK: When was the last time you cried? Do you cry easily?
Stiglitz: I do cry easily.
JMK: Wow At movies, or when?
Stiglitz: Yes, at movies, at something very sad, at total injustices, or even at something very positive.
JMK: Wow, so you are very sensitive.
Stiglitz: Yeah.
JMK: What advice would you give to a business school student about life and success?
Stiglitz: When I was in high school I talked to my parents about what I should do and they told me to do whatever I want but that there are two things that are important. One is to use your mind. The other is to be of service. The basic thing is that money is not important. I know most people go into business to make money. But don’t focus on the extrinsic rewards. In the long run you’ll regret it. Focus on the intrinsic rewards.
JMK: Ok, let’s do some word association. I will say a word and you say the first word that comes to mind.
Stiglitz: Ok.
JMK: World Bank
Stiglitz: Poverty reduction
JMK: Nobel Prize
Stiglitz: Achievement
JMK: Dean Feldberg
Stiglitz: Super Dean
JMK: Anya
Stiglitz: Love
JMK: Greenwald
Stiglitz: Brilliant
JMK: Yummy
Stiglitz: Food
JMK: Life
Stiglitz: Love
JMK: Sexy
Stiglitz: Anya
JMK: Pamela Anderson
Stiglitz: I don’t know who that is.
JMK: Columbia Business School
Stiglitz: A great institution.
JMK: Students
Stiglitz: Lively Fun.